Guide talk:DY warp series

Referenced in article

Note: None of these should have nacelles that are raised above (or below) the midline plane of the vessel.

DY-500

• "Based on the general design of the DY-100 series, yet enlarged and equipped with a new propulsion section featuring a single inboard warp coil set..."

• I do not like the version with the huge fusion thruster (File:DY-500.png). This one also has two nacelles, one more than allowed.

• This image would be my preferred take on the DY-500.

DY-700

• "...accompanied by the stretched 700 and 900 series..."

• I interpret it to mean it is its own DY variation, but lengthened in comparison to the -500. This image would seem to fit, but—again—lose the booster array and make it an inline warp nacelle-type, similar to the DY-500.

DY-900

• "...accompanied by the stretched 700 and 900 series..."

• I interpret it to mean it is its own DY variation, but lengthened in comparison to the -500. This image is a good starting point, with the main body shape; lose the bulbous rear and booster, add one inline warp nacelle.

DY-550

• "...and several dozen examples of the 550, 750 and 950 transport variants."

• I presume this will share the general shape-form of the DY-500, but with colonization mission variations (supplies, animals, etc)?

DY-750

• "...and several dozen examples of the 550, 750 and 950 transport variants."

• I presume this will share the general shape-form of the DY-700, but with colonization mission variations (supplies, animals, etc)?

DY-950

• "...and several dozen examples of the 550, 750 and 950 transport variants."

• I presume this will share the general shape-form of the DY-900, but with colonization mission variations (supplies, animals, etc)? This image is a good deviation from the DY-900, already. Adds subtlety to the variation this doesn't exist in the preceding two.

Original SFC gallery

With the recent "re-targeting" of the article's focus on just three warp-capable DYs, the original gallery is being transplanted here (so as to not confuse the issue when this is re-examined for the later DD issue.

200 "family"

• 
  An example DY-200 class variant of the DY-100
• 
  An example DY-220 class variant of the DY-120
• 
  An example DY-240 class variant of the DY-140

DY-500 Wheeler and "family"

• 
  DY-500 Wheeler class
• 
  DY-550 class, a -500 variant
• 
  DY-700 class, a -500 variant
• DY-750 class
  DY-750 class
• 
  DY-900 class
• 
  DY-950 class

DY-1100 Hawke

• 
  DY-1100 Hawke (starboard)
• 
  Hawke bow
• 
  Hawke dorsal
• 
  Hawke stern
• 
  Hawke ventral
• 
  Vega class scoutship, disembarking a DY-1100
• 
  Forward port aspect
• 
  Port aspect
• 
  Forward ventral view
• 
  In Earth orbit
• 
  Departing Earth orbit
• 
  Departing Jupiter orbit
• 
  Test of the forward section escape function
• 
  Forward port view
• 
  Dorsal view
• 
  Bow view
• 
  Departing space station
• 
  Hawke (port bow)
• 
  Hawke (starboard)
• 
  Hawke (stern dorsal)
• 
  Hawke (stern)

Additional images

• 
  Leif Ericson (starboard)
• 
  Leif Ericson (bow).png
• 
  Leif Ericson (dorsal)
• 
  Leif Ericson (forward dorsal)
• 
  Leif Ericson (stern)
• 
  Leif Ericson (ventral starboard).png
• 
  Leif Ericson (ventral)

Options Gallery

• 
  DY-300 in launch configuration
• 
  DY-350 destroyer
• 
  DY-1000
• 
  by admiral horton

Focusing on the UESN models for the DD article

While Timo mentions a lot of different variants of the DY that were warp-capable (see above talk section), the DD issue should focus on those three that the UESN procured. The following provides the source images for the targeted vessels:

• 
  UESN DY-500B Wheeler transport (2069)
• 
  UESN DY-1100 Hawke patrol cruiser (2087)
• 
  UESN DY-1250 Dare patrol corvette (1250)

Might be room for a DY-500C type, if the change is nor too divergent from the -B.

Relevant discussion regarding the UESN target vessels

Rev to AJ

I think I figured out the SS Leif Eirickson/Tellar first contact(s)/Hawke class issue, but want to see if you can break it. That will require some reading on your part, however.

Here's the source material: - [1] - [2]

The second only requires reading from the paragraph starting, "True enough..."

The issue is the date of first contact—at Tellar—is quite clear as taking place in 2073, as is Tellar's first contact with Humans at Neptune the same year. However, Timo says the Hawke class enters service in 2087.

I'll let you read that yourself. When you're ready, let me know and I'll propose my "solution".

AJ to Rev

Yeah, I can see from the articles the considerations regarding the narrative are going to be tight. What is your proposal?

Rev to AJ

I think it boils down to being a mis-understanding on my part. Timo's writing can be rather dense and—of course—he's working to tie together vessels from *many* different sources.

Both Timo & Delta Dynamics (DD) present important historical ships, not just those in either the UESF or Star Fleet. So, when we "re-started" our line on the "beginning" with #300, our focus was not on "military" ships, but ones that served as technological steps forward or early explorers

That's especially true with #300, the sub-light DY issue, which was one of our most complex. The DYs presented by Timo and DD were...all of them. Each iteration of the DY-1xx series was presented, whether they were the armed Apex or regulation enforcement variants, but also the prototype DY-50, the transports, the explorers.

I think that when Adrasil asked me to look ahead to the Leif Eirickson, I went into it—as I have for years—seeing Timo's article as a presentation of the entire warp-capable DY lineage. However, it occurred to me (after I roped you in) that maybe Timo was limiting the scope, when I saw the quantity of ships that he presented for the three sub-classes in the sidebar: 22, 15, & 50. Maybe, with this article, he was shifting into the full-on "militarized" presentations. Afterall, he mentions something like 13 different iterations of the warp-capable DYs, but only gets specific with three.

> "Lacking in range, the 1100 series did not sell as well as expected once it was established that there were few planets of interest in the immediate vicinity of Earth. DY tried to recoup on its losses by pushing the vessels to government work within the Sol system, but competition was fierce. The 1100 series was slightly too large and clumsy for combat maneuvers, fragile in basic construction, and relatively underpowered at impulse. The capacious interiors, originally optimized for long interstellar journeys, were the primary asset in securing a 2087 deal for fifteen DY-1100 hulls to serve in the Strategic Space Command of the newly-founded UESN."

(Of course, Timo had UESF there, but Earth's Starfleet hadn't been founded yet.)

It really sounds like he's saying the DY-1100 had an operational history prior to that selection by the UESN in 2087. So, if we put aside the fantastically-futurized hullform (in comparison to other contemporaneous ships), it's certainly possible that private use of the DY-1100 could have resulted in the Tellar FC in 2073 and that, despite the class' limitations, it was wasn't procured until 2087 as a UESN transport.

That's my take.

AJ to Rev

Indeed, based on the wording of the quoted paragraph, I would concur the implication is that the DY-1100 started out earlier as a civilian vehicle and then was remarketed as a military platform when that didn't pan out. This does open up some other thoughts though:

1) It's mentioned that the DY-1100 didn't sell well in civilian markets as it was "lacking in range." It seems that wouldn't make it a likely contender for defense procurement unless the DY-1100 was upgraded to the Hawke-class' specs. But here's the rub: If that's NOT the case, it would suggest DY was building warp 2.5 vessels right alongside (or even before...?) much slower ships. If that IS the case, and the Leif Erickson was considerably slower (as a pre-Hawke 1100), it would be difficult to even *get* to Tellar Prime within the ship's endurance limitations. Based on the speeds listed for the DY warp ships, to get to Tellar Prime, we'd be looking at:

Warp 2.5 (15.6c): ~9 months one-way Warp 2 (8c): ~1.4 years one-way Warp 1.4 (2.7c): ~4.16 years one-way.

It seems like Warp 2.5 would be the minimum sustainable cruising speed needed to make a crewed trip to Tellar Prime practical (without either making it a sleeper-ship or just plain bigger). But as I've already noted, that would imply DY was building W2.5 ships *very* soon after the Flight of the Phoenix.

2) The bit about radio transmissions from the Leif Erickson inspires some questions unto it's own. Did something happen to the Erickson which prevented it from getting back to Earth? Under any circumstances, warping back to Earth would get a message there sooner. It would make sense to send out a transmission regardless just in case the vessel was lost, but barring that, the Erickson should have returned to Earth long before it's own transmission arrived.

Rev to AJ

> It seems that wouldn't make it a likely contender for defense procurement unless the DY-1100 was upgraded to the Hawke-class' specs.

I want to defend it with "it was procured to just be a transport"...but that's no answer when range is considered (and belied by Timo's categorization of a "patrol cruiser"). This is a time period where you want to get between the Sol system and a target system, when deep-space & system depots don't exist. Other than as transport or convoy protection, why would Earth—at this stage—need power projection or non-Sol planetary defense? If we can come up with a projection mission, then the internal cargo capacity gives it some legs. But the range issue remains the problem.

I wish Timo had designated the Hawke class as DY-1150 rather than -1100, because then it would be easily accepted that the UESN version was a variant. However, we can easily write to the DY-1100 being similar to a car model series, with incremental upgrades over the intervening 15+ years.

> it would be difficult to even *get* to Tellar Prime within the ship's endurance limitations

Complete concurrence. I'm absolutely fine with changing Timo stats when we've exhausted rationalizing the provided data. We may need to do so in this case.

Just thought of this: the Hawke class has a crew of 83 with that large internal storage space. A militarized craft will have crew redundancy added, so it stands to reason a commercial DY-1100 exploration ship could have a longer range with significantly less crew. Of course, that same earlier vessel will not have the w 2.5 capacity of the 2087 Hawke class vessel either. We may want to continue to rely on cryogenics for one or both and/or extend Timo's endurance.

I think we have some room with which to play.

Continuing on with your thought exercise regarding travel times, the Tellarites arrived at Neptune just a few days after the Leif Eirickson made contact in their system. Up until today, I assumed the Sol visit was a response to that contact by Humans at Tellar, which suggests they have near Warp 5 capability themselves (assuming 40 days transit). I guess that's not unreasonable, but in re-reading Timo with more critical attention, it does appear that the Neptune arrival was coincidental to the Tellar first contact and may not have been made by these "explorer-merchantmen" knowledgeable of that homeworld connection.

As to your second point (radio transmissions), I'm choosing to read that as a factoid about how history is "received" thru the different means of reporting; in this case, the differences between the predominant STL radio and and new FTL propulsion. Whichever NGO sent the Eirickson may have had procedures for reporting via radio as a back-up, in case of vessel loss? Not a great analogy, but the use of nuclear fission on early naval vessels, especially only—say 8 to 10 years after development—might be considered still rather risky/unreliable. Afterall, the losses of both the Defiant (2066) and Valiant (2073) were fresh reminders of the risks.

This is a great discussion. I'm capturing it for our review for when we get to this issue.

AJ to Rev

> Other than as transport or convoy protection, why would Earth—at this stage—need power projection or non-Sol planetary defense?

It might have been a "Tellarite Panic," honesty. This paragraph from the article on Liberty class caught my eye:

"[....] the ship turned out to be a somewhat lost alien explorer-merchantman carrying a crew of Tellarites, a race contacted at their home-world 61 Cygni V by warp surveyor SS Leif Erickson only days before. As Earth studied the captured Tellarite ship, the radio transmissions of the Eirickson sped towards home to relay the news of the discovery, of the worldwide panic the ‘sneak attack’ of the Erickson had caused on Tellar, and of the peaceful solution to that panic by the hand-and-hoofshake of Captain Anders and monarch Gartov. But the transmissions would not arrive for another eleven years, and the public was far more inclined to believe the rumors that hideous aliens were preparing for an invasion of Earth."

This would seem to imply that a good chunk of Earth remained fearful and paranoid about a possible Tellarite invasion for a decade plus change until they finally got that radio transmission informing them that the crew of Erickson established positive relations. This, in turn, suggests a number of things to me:

• The Erickson was lost sometime after it contacted Tellar Prime and reported it, but before it was able to make the return journey to Earth. (It's possible this exacerbated the "Tellarite Panic" as United Earth may have learned from the captured merchant ship that 61 Cygni, the Erickson's target, is their home-world. And then the Erickson (possibly?) never came back...)

• The Vulcans, on top of not sharing technological information, apparently weren't willing to even offer diplomatic mediation or cultural information about the Tellarites. (Or maybe they did, but United Earth found reason to be weird about it anyway ala, the previous point.)

• What happened to the crew of the Tellarite merchant ship? (Not that it's relevant for the page about the Erickson specifically, but still...)

>If we can come up with a projection mission, then the internal cargo capacity gives it some legs.

For the slower warp ships of the day, I could see a push for further occupation and establishment of outposts, monitoring stations, and forward operating bases throughout the Oort Cloud, which extends to roughly a full light-year in radius around the sun. While it's never explicitly mentioned in Trek lore, in real life there is a *very* strong suspicion that the Oort Cloud contains a lot of dwarf-planets of various sizes including as big as Mars or Earth itself (Interestingly, in this context, they would still be considered "dwarf" planets as their orbits would be so large, having Earth-like mass wouldn't be enough to establish gravitational dominance in their orbit.) If my conjectural "Tellarite Panic" actually happened, I could see an effort being made to establish something like the Distant Early Warning Line (DEW Line) from the Cold War days in the Oort Cloud. That 1 LY radius also would be within practical range of the first-gen warp ships of the era (in the sense that travel-times would be limited to within months or weeks.) The Oort DEW Line would definitely necessitate transport craft as well since a lot of equipment would need to be moved out there.